Pricing may be one of the biggest challenges facing makers today. Not only is the act of determining price difficult in and of itself, makers must also deal with market pressures outside our control that effect price.
I mentioned in a previous post that Etsy recently posted a link to one of my cozy/cuffs on its Facebook page. This sparked a discussion about price. There were many people who thought that $32 was a ridiculously high price, and that I must be making an insane profit. (You can read my response to those comments on my other blog.)
This discussion coincided with my recent reading of the book Cheap: The High Cost of Discount Culture
In Cheap, author Ellen Ruppel Shell looks at the evolution of price in American – particularly the development of our current discount culture and American’s love affair with cheap. She also looks at some of the true costs of cheap good and labor that are not reflected in the actual price of an object.
I was immediately struck by the comment that “Most of us…have absolutely no idea of what goes into setting a price. Consumers… link price to profit, and they grossly overestimate profit margins.” I think this holds true for customers, but also for many makers. I think when many people look at a price, they only mentally factor in how much value there is in the materials (if they are even able to infer that). Most consumers lack the ability to factor in all the other costs associated with running a business – whether it’s a multinational corporation or a one-woman show – that effect a price. These other costs, such as labor, packaging, shipping, marketing, and promotion, are also often the costs that makers fail to factor in when setting their prices.
In the case of Etsy, I do think that in general prices have become artificially low. This is due mainly to the fact that Etsy is a Pro-Am community. While there are sellers on Etsy who make a full-time living from their work (often using Etsy in conjunction with retail shows, wholesale and consignment, and other selling venues), there are many more who view Etsy as an extension of their hobby. They knit scarves in their spare time, and someone suggested that they sell them on Etsy. These sellers don’t consider labor, profit, or many of the other costs of running a business when setting their prices because they don’t have to. And because these low prices occur on Etsy, more and more buyers expect them. Which creates a vicious cycle where sellers feel they need to lower their prices in order to sell.
Seth Godin says that you can’t change the marketplace, and I wonder if Seth might be right. While I know it is possible to sell higher priced goods on Etsy, it is becoming increasingly difficult to compete in a marketplace where buyers are motivated solely by price.
The question then is, what’s the solution for those of us attempting to make a living wage on our products? We can’t compete on price. What are the alternative marketplaces, both online and off, for us? And most importantly, how can we go about building and educating a consumer base that understands and supports the prices we are charging?
I’d love to hear your thoughts, and I would highly recommend that you read Cheap: The High Cost of Discount Culture
This is exactly why I haven’t set up an Etsy shop in the first place. I feel like it’s like ebay that way, where you’re trying to sell your work while competing with others who are selling vintage and under valued pieces. It’s not to say that I never will set up shop there, but I haven’t been able to reconcile the problems with it yet.
I saw someone (his last name was Patel, but I forget his first name) on either the Daily Show or Colbert last week whose book “The Value of Nothing” was similar to “Cheap.” On the show he was talking about how eating fast food doesn’t cost the consumer a lot of money, but ends up costing you so much more in the end due to healthcare costs, the cost to the environment, etc.
I was really sorry to see all the hurtful things that were said about your cozy/cuff in that conversation. But there were some people sticking up for you too. Try to focus on them and leave the rest to haggle over goods at the dollar store.
Its critical to not give in on lowering prices for the sake of low prices… you absolutely won’t win that battle. Part-time hobbyists don’t rely on making for a living: same thing happens in the craft show world. Studio makers must endlessly tell their stories to educate buyers, and then work hard to keep them. Its the story that matters in craft. That and quality.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’m a printmaker who has slowly been raising her prices to reflect the time and work that go into the creation of my prints. I saw your cuff on etsy’s Facebook page and thought that it was both beautiful and very reasonably priced. I think that most people are so used to being consumers that they have no idea how much work goes into creating. It’s sometimes hard to be one of the few people educating a market used to discounts and mass-produced items about the true price/cost of things.
But I believe that if we don’t value our own work, no one else will.
i want to believe there is more to this than just a culture that relies on cheap. of course that “something more” will require a new marketing strategy… a better organized movement.
for instance, there are plenty of stores that many – too many – people shop at who over charge for their goods: hollister, urban outfitters, nordstrom’s, really any boutique-type store surviving in a mall. you can’t tell me that their sweat shops in china or vietnam or india are any better than the sweat shops target uses in those same locations.
but for some reason, this walmart culture that wants to pay $1.99 for beef will pay $40 for a t-shirt that is sewn poorly but says “hollister.” (they irk me the most). so you can’t tell me that cheap people aren’t willing to shell out for a piece of crap that communicates some ridiculous status.
so – i guess – where i’m going with this is that, while we most certainly live in a culture of “cheap,” that isn’t the only motivating factor when it comes to consuming. how can we link “status” and handmade? how can we elevate value & design?
i truly don’t think the answer is forsaking marketplaces like Etsy. it’s communicating how consuming handmade, independently designed goods affects you and your status.
hmmm… not exactly sure i said what i meant. need to ruminate on this further!
….”while we most certainly live in a culture of “cheap,” that isn’t the only motivating factor when it comes to consuming. how can we link “status” and handmade? how can we elevate value & design?”
This is such an excellent and important point!! This article and your post has made me realize that I (and all artists) need to charge what my (their) pieces are worth – including my very valuable time and effort – people forget or don’t realize how much time is involved in conceptualizing a design. For me actually putting a necklace together is the “easy” part. Sometimes I spend 1 -2 days coming up with and reworking a design.
Somehow we need to educate the masses (or as many of the masses as possible) that there is status in wearing/using something that has been handmade, it shows that this is a person who is not only concerned with quality, but they are also, in effect, a patron of the arts.
For God’s sake, please don’t talk about quality and then type a whole treatise in text-speak. Perhaps if you learned about capitalization, punctuation, etc., you could be taken more seriously.
As someone who has a 40+ hour/week job unrelated to crafting and as someone who does admit that what I sell is an extension of my hobby, I can see both sides of the coin. I will also agree that Etsy is not only saturated in low priced stuff right now, but they’re just plain ol’ saturated in stuff. Low prices come about both to satisfy bossy buyers and because people just don’t know how to price what they make. Some of that stems from lack of education and some of that stems from willful avoidance. And as you know, I also believe that Etsy has let their sellers run amuck and provide unsound advice to one another on a myriad of topics, pricing being just the tip of the iceberg.
Everyone has a right to sell what they make at whatever price they deem accurate. Etsy is not the only place where prices have been slashed in order to pull in buyers. People are broke and they want to spend less; art and adornment being commodities that are wants and not needs only further justifies the slippery slope of price reduction. Places like Wal-Mart are running small time manufacturers into the ground with their price gouging and relentless, market annihilating negotiation techniques. There’s just a really profoundly awful convergence of circumstances that prevent people from justifying a purchase that identifies them as an individual – especially when what they want is made by an individual who supports themselves with the profits. This is kind of the American dream crumbling in upon itself. A twisted, mangled mess of inexpensive plastic and metal from China.
I think the question is – where did people like you and full-time crafters/artists sell your stuff BEFORE Etsy? How did you make your money? Who bought what you made? Did you make as much money then as you do now, with Etsy? These are questions that might dissolve the dreams and hopes of many, but if the old cliche stands true, many of the greatest artists didn’t sell a thing until after they kicked the bucket. We need to care about politics surrounding business and free enterprise, and we need to be involved in the machinations of the marketplace that we demand sustain us, and we need to seek financial support from people outside our insulated microcosm. If crafters rely on crafters to sustain them, at all or even to a small degree, the ship will capsize. That is why this blog is GREAT!
[Geez, I’m a Debbie Downer for sure! Blah!]
Hi Meaghan,
Your comment might seem like lightyears ago now but I still want to thank you for making it…straight from the heart and to the point !
I am a very slow and naive newcomer to all this lark and I must admit that I have been deep down resenting the fact that Etsy seems to expect us artists/makers to work for less than nothing just because we do not carry the cache of a big name. We are the ‘local’ worldwide sweatshops now.
Etsy – as an umbrella organisation – does not make enough effort to make clear to the buyers clicking idly on to the site are getting an utterly unique bespoke service with their item.
Kiki xxx
“Everyone has a right to sell what they make at whatever price they deem accurate. ”
Hmm… I’m not sure I agree with this. I think sellers have a responsibility to not undervalue their craft. That hurts the entire handmade community, which is pretty unfair, because it sends the message that handmade items aren’t worth spending money on. If one seller sells a knit hat for $5, then another seller follows suite, and another, and another, consumers are going to get the idea that that’s what a knit hat “should” cost. One person’s low prices don’t just affect that seller, they affect all of us and how our craft is perceived.
You bring up some interesting points. There are definitely many underpriced stores on Etsy. I feel though if someone is truly in love with your product, they’re going to buy it. Like your cup cozies. They are very unique and that alone makes them worth a more expensive price than some of the other cozies on Etsy.
I may check how similar sellers are pricing their items, but I don’t let that sway my pricing structure. I price things according to my pricing structure. Just my two cents.
This is my first time checking out your blog. Love it!
I’ve been supporting myself for over 5 years now with my purses, and I have a hard time with the pricing issue. When I first started, it was a hobby, I had another job, and I only charged $40 a purse, because I didn’t know any better, and that’s what I personally would have paid because I was really cheap. When I decided to get serious about it and quit my job, I had to really crunch the numbers and figure out what to charge. I doubled my prices. A year or so later, after struggling to make ends meet, I decided to raise prices once again, to reflect the true cost of running my business. Along the way, I also upgraded my materials significantly, and invested in better equipment. While I am able to run a profitable business, and am fortunate to have no debt, I’m never going to get rich making Book Purses, and am still making a pretty thin margin.
It’s hard because I know $150, which is now my average price, is a tough pill to swallow for an impulse buy. When I shop online, which is quite often, I will rarely buy something over $100 without thinking it over for a while first. However, if I am at a craft show, I am much more likely to spend top dollar, because I can inspect the quality first hand, and meet the artist in person and hear their story. Also, now I know how much hard work goes into handmade, so I am more comfortable spending a lot on a well made piece.
I started Rebound Designs before Etsy came around, and I sold my work at Eastern Market in DC, which is a combination Farmers Market, Art Market, and Flea Market. It’s a tough sell for $150 purses next to $5 imported jewelry, but there are enough other crafters out there with me that the customers get educated on the differences. I had my own website, so I didn’t get an Etsy shop for a while, partly because of the price issue, and also because of the copy cats.
I don’t have my stats for 2009 finished yet, but for 07 and 08, I did about 60% of my business at shows, and 40% online. I do really well at craft shows, from flea markets all the way to high end indoor shows, because I think being able to touch the product and see the quality in person makes a big difference in overcoming price objections. I also have a background in sales, so I’m good at talking to customers. Online, it’s different, you have to anticipate their questions about price in your descriptions, and handle it in a non defensive way.
It’s hard to tell where my direct web traffic comes from, did they take a card at a show, read about me on a blog and bookmark it to come back later, hear about it from a friend, etc, but I am fairly certain most of my internet sales are people who have thought about it for a while. I do get buying surges when I have a big press mention, and those are all immediate sales, but that’s atypical.
I still don’t sell much on Etsy, just my wallets and my pins, and special purses for an exhibit, or sale ones. I’m debating moving everything over, it shouldn’t make a difference where on the internet my purses are, $150 on my website is the same as $150 on Etsy. I’d love to hear from anyone who has made the switch, and how it worked out for them, especially with high end products.
This is probably the longest comment I have ever left on the internet, and I still have tons to say! I’ve been thinking about pricing a lot lately, thanks for starting this conversation Megan!
I’m so glad I started my business before the whole on-line selling craze. I once tried to fight for the integrity of craft on-line, but I don’t bother anymore. No longer do I rely on any website to be seen, except my own, which I’ve had for almost 10 years now.
There are great things going on in craft right now that have nothing to do with being on-line. Buyers are out there and will pay for quality items.
I paticipate in some awesome shows, indie, fine art and small art in the parks. I sell in some great local shops and word of mouth can go a long way.
I think the bottom line is that if you have a quality, memorable product, you can go far with it, but it’s hard work!
K and H
tara says: “but for some reason, this walmart culture that wants to pay $1.99 for beef will pay $40 for a t-shirt that is sewn poorly but says “hollister.” (they irk me the most). so you can’t tell me that cheap people aren’t willing to shell out for a piece of crap that communicates some ridiculous status.”
Sadly, this is so very true. I was just mentioning this phenomenon early today, in reference to craft fairs where I’ve had folks tell me they love my jewelry, but just can’t afford it right now, while walking around in a fancy looking Banana Republic/Jcrew coat that they probably spent way too much on, and was made in a sweatshop in some third world country. And this is for a $58 sterling silver handcrafted necklace. In the case of Megan’s cozy cuffs, I’m sure that her price point wouldn’t be questioned at all if her cozy cuff was for sale at Nordstrom. Perhaps this is an issue of perception.
Certainly, Etsy has done nothing to elevate craft. As mentioned in the OP, it has created a culture of cheap prices – with few exceptions. I too struggle with trying to find the best places, both online and off, to sell my work, as I continue to raise my prices in hopes to make a higher profit this year.
It makes me so happy to see everyone jumping into this discussion! – this is one of the reasons I started this site – I want to give makers the opportunity to discuss their businesses!
Everyone has made some really great points, I don’t even know where to begin. Guess I’ll just jump in…
Meaghan – you are right on. Etsy is a product of our current discount culture. Walmart, along with other discount retailers, put crazy demands on suppliers to keep prices low, but suppliers feel pressure to meet those demands because of the volume they can sell with a retailer like Walmart. But consumers don’t see this pressure, or the other “costs” that result from it.
I also think the recession has contributed to the swell in stuff on Etsy. People who have lost their jobs or had their income reduced have turned to Etsy with the hope of earning extra income, while at the same time, buyers have much less money to spend on non-necessary goods. (And Meaghan, you aren’t really debbie downer – this is an important conversation!)
Tara – yet another reason I started this blog – we absolutely need a new marketing strategy! Unfortunately, I think Etsy could be playing a bigger role in this then they are. While branding is something that I work very hard at in my own business (and something I plan on talking about A LOT here) I think its almost impossible for an individual maker to development the brand clout of a company like Holister (if someone can think of an example disproving this, I would love to here about it!) The flip side is, there is no one way to define “craft” or “handmade”, so marketing that as a whole is difficult as well.
Caitlin – the evolution of your prices is a lot like mine, when i first started making production, my prices were much lower then they are now!
And since Caitlin shared her breakdown, and Meaghan asked how we made money before Etsy, I thought I’d share an estimate of my 2008 sales (haven’t finished 09 yet either) In 2008, about 75% of my sales came from wholesaling to stores, about 20% came from retail craft shows, and only 5% came from Etsy sales.
i really do believe that society is so fed up with all this cheap cheap cheap mentality.
here in germany we had a horrible commercial slogan that says like “stinginess is cool” for years.
these times are over… it is not cool at all. people start to value quality and handmade creativity again.
the future won’t be CHEAP. i really believe in that!
btw… LOVE your cuffs!
nic
Why would you think you can change the marketplace? You must figure out which group of customers recognizes and values the quality of what you do and figure out what they will pay. You must convince them of what they wlli get for their money. There is no reason a rational buyer will pay more for an identical item just because you need the money more than another seller. It’s not about you. It’s about the customers, what they recognize as high value and what you are willing to do to deliver.
Kathy, you can definitely change the marketplace. Educating customers will help them understand the value of what you do, you can’t expect them to just understand it instantly. I’m able to get the prices I ask for because I’ve spent years building my reputation at shows and online, I’ve spent hundreds of hours talking to customers and explaining what I do, and why it is worth their money. I didn’t just stumble across a group of customers who automatically “got” my work and handed over their money.
Yes education definitely works. People can become convinced that certain features and qualities are something that they value even if they didn’t know they valued it before. It sounded as though some writers wanted to demand higher prices just because they were depending on the income. Whether we like it or not, the internet makes it possible for people to sell very high quality for a low price just for the fun of selling it. The fact that a particular seller does not need to make a profit does not necessarily lower the quality. It may or it may not. I’m seeing two different ideas conflated in these conversations. In many segments of the marketplace we see people cut corners because they do need the profit to live on. You are right in that a seller must distinguish himself or herself by having an edge.
I did not interpret any of the comments as people charging more simply because they needed more money. It’s a question of recognizing what your time is really worth, and how much time you actually spend on your business. I want a living wage, I don’t need to be rich, but I don’t want to work in my own personal sweatshop. Crafters underselling their work are doing themselves a great disservice, and in the long run, it affects all of us. If you can’t make a proper living selling your work, how do you pay your bills, your rent, your health costs? Those factors all contribute to the general economy.
Educating your customers is more than just telling them why your product is worth the money. It’s about why YOU are worth the money. I’d rather spend twice as much on a beautiful craft that is the artist’s original idea, than pay a copycat half that, or an importer a tenth, even if the quality is the same.
(of course, the quality is never the same, the cream rises to the top…)
Ahh… this where the importance of knowing just who your buyer is, because once known little or no convincing is needed. If you have identified who will likely buy your work, developed a focused message so she can see you and only you above the noise she will find you. And more importantly she will tell her friends who are just like her and they will find you. The result is loyal buyers who will not only continue to buy your work but will also evangelize your message.
The other issue is more of a mindset based on guilt for daring to ask for money in return for something you made, fear of not getting paid and most importantly a lack of understanding of one of fundamental laws of selling…you can’t be everything to everybody.
Even the discounters have their niche, or take a look at Starbucks, they could care less about the fact that my 90 year old dad wouldn’t be caught dead spending $5.00 for a cup of coffee. Why? Because their market is those who see the difference not those who don’t see the difference between the $1.00 coffee sold at Mac & Don’s and the $5.00 Latte’ at Starbucks.
I am so glad I stumbled across this site with this chain of discussion. I am having a huge problem with pricing and I think Bill has hit upon some of the more fundamental “dark” issues I struggle with daily….”is my stuff really good enough for people to pay a high price?” Thank you for voicing these concepts!
hi-thought i would chime in here–fascinating discussion!!
i agree with kathy–one thing i learned when doing ‘craft’ shows was it all depended on where the show was and who was attending. any show in the suburbs bombed because that was what we called the ‘walmart’ crowd and they would spend a few dollars here and there but nothing over $20. many of them actually came for ideas to make themselves.
But, if the show was in a different neighborhood, i could easily sell $6-800 in a day.
I would never do a show that mixed art and flea market, because flea market people will not spend $ and i don’t like being asked if i would take less on my art.
so, i guess the real issue is, what are we doing to attract the right market? there are still people out there who will pay whatever for something they really like…but how do we get ourselves noticed by that group when they dont shop etsy or ebay or other local craft markets?
jackie
urbanartifaks.etsy.com
Is etsy really the problem? I think those that are selling their craft for too little are simply trying to come up with a number that will make them a sale and not trying value themselves or their work.
That’s a cultural problem. Food producers, electric companies, oil companies, clothing manufacturers do the same thing. They find a price most people are willing to pay and then they find the inferior materials and untrained labor to get the job done.
People who underprice their craft are just doing what they know.
In the end, it’s a matter of self worth. What we consume and what we produce Is a reflection of that.
I think Tara and others made a lot of good points. I think maybe it is a matter of bringing high quality craft to the right audiences. I think it can also be a question of the way the products are presented, and I agree, sometimes having all variety of quality and price points on Etsy, it can be difficult to sift through them all to find the high quality merchandise. How do we find and reach out to those audiences who are willing to pay more? Because those people are definitely out there. I know a lot of people who are jaded and upset by the low quality of so much of the mass merchandise stuff that’s out there, but maybe they still don’t understand that handmade can fill that gap and be amazingly high quality and customized. There are plenty of people out there willing to pay top dollar for tons of luxury goods… we just need to lead them to us somehow.
I just had a similar discussion with my ceramics instructor today.
She told me I shouldn’t price my items on the cheap side, just because I was feeling insecure as a potter. And I shouldn’t price my items to make a quick sale, because that hurts the perceived value of my “brand”.
Underpricing my craft devalues my identity, and even more, it hurts my community of fellow artists.
In addition to educating consumers about the value/status of a handmade item, perhaps we can educate sellers about the consequences of underpricing their craft.
Thanks to you for your OP/comments. I really enjoyed reading them.
Tara – is Etsy really the problem? As far as selling crafts online in a “community” environment, I think they are at least culpable for (on purpose or otherwise) driving down prices in order to satisfy consumers. When you gather hobbyists, crafters, artists, artisans and resellers (supply and vintage) in one space and say “have at it!” you’re going to deal with some strong price point competition.
If Etsy cared as much as they should, they wouldn’t encourage this kind of environment, because it’s bad for handmade and for people other than themselves and the people who are successful selling inexpensive stuff. It affects their profits positively, however, when people sell a massive amount of product at rock bottom prices. If you sell 100 earrings at $20/each, Etsy makes $80 (that’s. If you sell 25 earrings (this is assuming that making more expensive earrings is both laborious and more costly supply-wise, therefore limiting stock and increasing cost per item) at $50/each, Etsy makes $57.50. Add up that difference for hundreds upon thousands of sellers and millions of transactions and there you have it – what I perceive to be their business model.
I could go on and on about all of this. As someone who keeps her prices intentionally low (so I can keep things pretty much relegated to “hobby” and avoid a lot of the financial caretaking a more substantial business requires), I am also annoyed by sellers who overprice low quality product. Whether it’s crappy quality yarn or an obvious hyperinflation of supply costs and/or my estimation of labor time for products similar to things I make myself, I feel like Etsy does its consumers a disservice by elevating these crafters because they have great photographs or aesthetics. We’ll see what Rob manages to do once he gets things going…
There is more than one way to look at Etsy. Yes, I think the less than sustainable pricing is rampant there. And it is a great deal for those people who go to Etsy simply to scan a lot of handmade merchandise and select an item or two for purchase. However I use Etsy as an extension of my other retail outlets. I give away cards at shows directing people to my website. My website has a link to Etsy as my salesroom. The customers that buy my items are the ones who already know my work, it’s price and want more of it. I don’t have a sense of being undersold because the people are there for my specific pieces. If an Etsy shopper chooses my work, then great, if not, it’s just a convenient place to list my work online with an easy and ready to go shopping cart system.
To sum it up, since I provide the customer stream to the Etsy store it is still a viable marketplace for my work despite many other potters selling at 1/2 the price.
Ah, the culture of cheap is something that has bothered me for a while – Tara’s example of the cheaply-made-but-expensively-priced Hollister t-shirt is exactly what drives me crazy.
I wanted to chime in just to say 2 things. One, that we should not underestimate the indie loving shoppers out there. They are out there…people who absolutely understand how much time and effort went into designing, drafting, creating, making, etc. whatever it is that you make, and are totally willing to pay for it. Of course, there are also some customers who only need a little bit of information/education before they “get it,” but there are *also* some customers who won’t ever get it. I don’t know that we should be too worried about them – if they can’t get why quality handmade goods are better than cheap factory crap (even after our education efforts) then they simply are not our customers. Let them blow their money at the mall on brand name things that they like simply because of the brand name. My first reaction to people who complain about my (or any crafty business person’s) prices is: “this is not for you.” I don’t *say* that of course, but that’s what I’m thinking. We don’t have to *change* the market, we just have to find our portion of it.
Secondly, I just wanted throw out there that in my own Etsy experience, my higher-priced items sell far better than the lower priced items. I don’t know if I’m an anomaly, but just thought I’d mention it.
I hope we continue this discussion, it’s an important one! In the end, I just hope that designers and makers will realize they have the right to price their goods at what they are actually worth, and realize that there are customers out there who will gladly pay those prices. They might not be the same people that shop at WalMart and Hollister, and that’s probably okay.
I don’t think Etsy is really the problem, that’s not to say that they couldn’t have designed the site with more diversity as in tiered membership. As I’ve said in other replies here…the key is to ban the “if I build it they will come” mindset. Valerie points out the fact that her higher priced work sells and could it be because she makes herself visible, she decommoditizes her work by making the value conversation about her and not her work.
Many of my Featured Artists had similar problems at the beginning of last year and according to them, they started becoming far more visible in on-line social media which in turn translated to far higher sales by the end of the year than they ever imagined.
The shift they made was changing the focus and being willing to take the risk of not only finding those folks who resonate with their values but also taking the time to develop a relationship with them. They realized that while for some price will always be the deciding factor, they would rather focus their effort on being found by those who value the skill and energy required to make something of beauty out of nothing.
Valerie is right…when you can forget about the WalMarters you free yourself to see your work and its’ value which in turn re-energizes you to find buyers who would love to have a house or office full of what you make.
Wow, I can’t wait to read this book. I think pricing correctly is very important for so many reasons. There are consequences being paid by our communities because of people underselling their work. Brick and mortar shops are at a serious disadvantage when people choose to buy ‘cheap stuff on Etsy’. And we need brick and mortar shops in our neighborhoods. Artists and crafters who do price their work correctly (pay themselves a living wage and have retail prices) are acting responsibly.
And, yes, education does indeed work. I am happy to explain my pricing to my customer, the quality of my material, the time that goes into making a piece. We have to understand that not everyone knows how long it takes a human being to make something. Not everyone knows the social and environmental impact of sweatshops.
Valerie – you are totally right – there are some amazing indie shoppers who are totally committed to what we are doing. We just have to figure out how to make more of them! (And you’re also right, they probably aren’t the same people who frequent walmart and hollister.)
Shannon said “We have to understand that not everyone knows how long it takes a human being to make something. Not everyone knows the social and environmental impact of sweatshops.” That’s a really key point to remember, one I often forget. I really think the handmade/indie movement can take some lessons from what’s going on in the food reform movement – books like the Omnivore’s Dilemma and movies like Food Inc are helping people realize the high costs of cheap food. The more books like Cheap that educate people about the costs associated with irresponsible mass-production, the better. We just need to make sure we position ourselves as the solution.
Maybe Michael Pollan’s next book can be the Consumer’s Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Modes of Production (just a suggestion. in case Mr. Pollan is secretly reading this)
i could go on and on about this – and “the culture of cheap” is partly why i started my blog – where i try to focus on artisan work from etsy – so work that may cost more but could support an artist who would like to live all or partly off their work.
and “the culture of cheap” is doing a great disservice to all of us – i don’t want to get overly political – i restrain myself on my blog too, but i did some research on factory conditions in china and etc. and there are still grave concerns to this day about what’s going on over there. and when you go to most stores a lot of what’s available is from china….
now this is not to deny anyone in china a job. far from it. but we do need manufacturing jobs in north america and throughout the world – be it artisans or otherwise. i think it creates a more balanced economy and is a healthy and beautiful thing.
i have article upon article from reputable sources (ie. new york times) denouncing the culture of cheap and the burden of waste and the environmental concerns it’s creating.
i believe it’s through strong marketing efforts that we can elevate those artists on etsy who are charging what they’re worth and who are original and/or are innovating…
i think it’s also through spreading the word to friends and family in a very friendly way that there are alternatives, and also looking at how we ourselves live. movements are contagious and start with even just a few people who are dedicated.
i kind of see every dollar we spend as a vote we have for the kind of world we want to live in!
haha just realizing i got a bit sidetracked from the original question but i think i arrive at the same end point with things as i would have otherwise! 🙂
I have a rattan chair made in the 1960’s, handed down to me by my mother, which I treasure. It’s beautiful, well made, and have lasted for almost half a century. I can’t really say the same for things manufactured at the moment; whether it be from a third world country, or anywhere else. I think that some people have become so greedy that they lose sight of what’s beautiful, and that they have forgotten that beauty costs more than spare change.
People throw things away everyday. I hurt when I have to throw something away. I’m no hoarder, but I forge a bond with things I pick out. And how I wish that people would stop making crappy stuff and just focus their energy on making heirlooms that would last. I wouldn’t mind the price, because as a business owner, I understand that it’s more than just materials – it’s a labor of love, especially handmade items.
The culture of cheap was not perpetuated by Etsy. Look around – cheap things are more readily available, not just on Etsy. Globalization, urbanization and the availability of cheaper items opened up the market to a different price point (and sometimes at the cost of quality). One good thing that came out from this is that people who might not have afforded some items previously can now do so, even though it may be at the cost of quality. Etsy is just the placeholder – it’s the people’s mindset that needs changing.
You sell your cuffs at USD$32, while a copycat comes out with an inferior product that might sell for USD$10. People might feel threatened with this, and I understand it completely. But I always tell people that those who appreciate and buy your items are very different from buyers who are only looking for a cheap thrill. I won’t even bother courting them because they’re of a different market, and one that I won’t want to cater to anyway.
I believe that a free market is good for business. And Etsy is a play on the free market economy. It will naturally weed out those who are weak, and those who offer inferior products will never last long. So my advice is — don’t be disheartened. Those who do it for passion and love will be the ones who thrive in business. We can’t change the system, but it doesn’t mean that we have to go along with it – fight for what you believe is yours, and don’t give in to the masses.
Found your blog today (through your facebook page if you’re tracking that).
Pricing is tricky, but I’d say over the long run it evens itself out. People who are low balling will either raise their prices so that they properly cover ALL their expenses and pay themselves an acceptable wage or they drop out of business because they’re losing money. At some point, even hobbiests run up against issues of oppertunity cost.
Hello! I just wanted to say I have found your article and comments fascinating and felt I had to contribute. I currently work a 50 hour week as a graphic designer, with the rest of my waking hours spent laboring over crumbling vintage sewing patterns, re-threading my ancient old overlocker (Olive) and retouching photographs taken outside my house in the late evening (racing against the clock before the light dies down!).
The consumer doesn’t know this. They also don’t know how hard it is to create exact miniature replicas of Audrey Hepburn’s pants with only a photograph to guide you… and so, they balk at the price and won’t risk trying something new. Why bother when you can get it so much cheaper, right?
As a consumer, I had no grasp of the “cost of cheap”, and wouldn’t bat an eyelash at buying mass-produced goods at low, low prices. I would never buy anything too expensive, especially online. And if it fell apart after the wash, it was fine, because I could easily afford another! How silly is that?! It is only now, after my steep learning curve, that I understand the true value of handmade goods, and I am willing to give independent designers a chance. This Christmas, I bought only handmade gifts made in Australia for my family. Maybe we can all help one another by committing to do this too?
I sometimes feel like only ladies of my grandmother’s generation would be able to appreciate the true quality and beauty of our handmade goods… but I’m afraid they just don’t shop online!
I discovered this recently when I asked for suggestions on pricing a new stuffed squirrel pet toy I’d made. Many people suggested $7 was as high as they would pay for it. I was floored. After my wholesale price of $3.50, I would get about $1.50 in profit. For approximately 30-40 minutes of work. I see plenty of other sellers on Etsy with similar items priced closer to the $20 I actually listed the toy at, and even the big box stores would sell something like that for $10-$14. I just could not believe the response and don’t think I’ll be back asking the forum for pricing advice.
If there were a marketplace that required your business tax ID at sign up, then verified it somehow, I could see that becoming a marketplace for items that are priced to gain profit for the artist. But then the few Etsy copycats would see them and just undercut artists there, so who knows how it would work out.
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I only really came to understand the value of handmade goods when I became a handmade crafter myself … now almost everything I buy is handmade, from the local markets or Etsy or other online crafting sites. I love to support the small independents and I love knowing the amount of work that goes into every item I buy.
Etsy is very much a professional/amateur site for crafters. Personally I think that, for most people, you can’t make a living from Etsy alone for this very reason. You have to have other selling avenues – wholesaling, local markets, and so on.
The consumerist culture prevalent in our society does not lend itself to appreciate or value the handmade and crafted. Buy it cheap, use it now, but then get another cheap one asap. Nothing is made to last be valued or more importantly have any soul.
I craft bags which when I started took me 3 to 4 hours to make. I made some samples and market tested a group of friends on how much they would pay. The prices they quoted barely covered material costs let alone my labour or postage or advertising. The main reason was why pay $40 for a handmade (consumer code for tacky) bag when I can get the latest fashion trend for $20 from the nearest outlet store.
That alone could have done significant damage to my esteem and confidence but I have pressed on determined to find my niche. I have like others agonised over what to charge and what a low price says about my product and I have compromised on what I think is fair middle ground. In the end the product is only worth what the consumer is prepared to pay. Either that or I have my artistic ethic intact and a slammin’ collection of handmade bags in my wardrobe!!!
There has to be a value shift in culture where we again place importance and find beauty in individual, original craftmanship. I too have been guilty of the cheapest is best and have had my own bitter pill to swallow. Its together as a society/guild/collective of crafters supporting handmade by purchasing it ourselves that it will begin to ripple out through our worlds to the greater world beyond us and perhaps bring with it a gradual paradigm shift.
Amy says: “I believe that a free market is good for business. And Etsy is a play on the free market economy. It will naturally weed out those who are weak, and those who offer inferior products will never last long. So my advice is — don’t be disheartened. Those who do it for passion and love will be the ones who thrive in business. We can’t change the system, but it doesn’t mean that we have to go along with it – fight for what you believe is yours, and don’t give in to the masses.”
I don’t believe this for a second. The free market is what got us here in the first place – a country where there are practically no manufacturing jobs, plants have closed down. Look at cities like Detroit, Buffalo, Baltimore and countless others. These were cities that thrived on blue collar work where a single worker could provide a good living for their families. Without regulation of our free market system, those jobs are gone and these cities have half the populations they used to.
We CAN change the system and marketplace, which is what this discussion is all about. The basic purpose of marketing is to brand a product and raise awareness of – or change the perception of that product. What we need to do is to educate and change perceptions – just like what is happening in the food industry. Of course, there are some people who will never get it – they don’t like to think about things too much – but there are many that will.
The free market system will not naturally weed out weak, inferior products. It hasn’t so far, look at the success of Walmart. If we are to change this marketplace, it’s not going to happen by being passive. This must be a conscious effort, a movement, if you will. And I believe there is some momentum, people are connecting with handmade for a reason.
I’m confused about the direction of this conversation. For someone like me, Walmart puts clothes on my kids, allows me to save money on necessities like diapers, toothpaste etc… What I can see is that they employ the elderly, handicapped and give the middle class a place to save.
I don’t think Walmart has anything to do with handmade.
I think we all should take a good look at ourselves and look at what we’re tweeting, the lingo we’re using, who we’re blogging about, and where our avatars are linking back to…
We can all talk the talk but do “we” walk the walk?
Elisa, you raise some good points there, and the same thing is happening in my country too. However, I did not mention that the free market will weed out inferior products. Inferior products exist because people buy them all the time, and economy is about supply and demand. The reason why Walmart is stocked with these products is because a lot of people buy them. And Walmart being a business, will not say no to making profits. They’re not bad, or good. They are in business for making profit. (I won’t get into ethics or the nitty gritty of how they make their money.)
I am all for encouraging and educating the people about the importance of buying quality goods; I think it is very important. Changing the mindset of the consumer is the most important. If they don’t appreciate well-made products, even if the market were regulated, they will still find a loophole to get their cheap thrills elsewhere, because their demands are not being met.
It’s the same with Etsy. Ultimately, it’s the consumer who makes the choice of whether they want to support an artist’s work or not; at the price artists set for themselves. If you have something unique to offer to the marketplace, you won’t mind competition, because the audience you target, and the ties that you build with your customer will ensure your business continuity. Healthy competition keeps you on your toes, and makes you and your business grow.
What an interesting conversation, thanks for initiating it! I wanted to contribute a couple of points.
Making handmade goods as an occupation has become undervalued in our society, much like educators. It’s something I would like to be doing as a full time business myself, but so far it’s something that has to be done as a second job in my time off from my other full time job. But that is something we can change. Education is certainly a start. I like the idea of setting up a marketplace that only caters to professional business. If publicized and marketed correctly (back to education), it could lead to elevating craft as business. I’d make a site like that if I had the time (my other job is a web designer/developer).
That said, I think that we are faced with the reality of the economy and as business people we need to be smart about our product lines in terms of the market. There is a difference between inexpensive and cheap. One of my best sellers, my flower earrings, are made from less expensive materials and are relatively quick to make and therefore I can sell them at a lower price point. I try to balance these types of products with more time consuming and more costly materials like gold and silver. Both products are well made, but suit different audiences. I’m relatively new to the game, so maybe this is a bad strategy. I’d love to hear what you guys think.
“Wal-mart is not the problem.”
Well, IMHO it is and it isn’t. I constantly struggle over this issue with my mum. I gave up on it finally. She lives in a rural and isolated community. Funny enough, Wal-mart is there. Somethings that she and her husband NEED to survive they can only afford at Wal-mart. We can’t shame people for being in this trap. It is not their fault. It is all of ours for not demanding ore of an egalitarian society where all citizens are provided for either by the state or the market. Corporations like Wal-mart prey on the working and lower middle classes. (I’m going to step in here and say, just to clarify that the US doesn’t actually have a significant middle/ upper middle class. We are mostly a nation of working class people and the insanely rich.) The more I remind her about where and how Wal-mart produces many of its goods, the less she shops there. And it’s getting through to her. But there are still things she cannot afford elsewhere.
On the other hand, Wal-mart is also at the forefront of some green business ideas believe it or not. And this one corporation’s giant hand may just have the influence we need to start living in a healthier environment. You can read about that here in the NY Times. It has to do with sustainability indexes. This won’t k=make Wal-mart perfect and it could backfire, but it’s something of note.
Lastly, consumption at Wal-mart is a two way street. Wal-mart makes the decisions to sell the way they do. But consumers… consumers like you and me and all of us, choose, consciously choose, to consume there.
“A free market is NOT good for business.”
Ultimately a lightly, intelligently regulated free market will be good for business. Lightly regulated, because there will always be creeps trying to sneak a few extra mil, but free. Intelligently regulated because there is a difference between regulating tax breaks for corporations and telling us what we can buy and sell. We cannot assume that because our generation is seeing the deterioration of the market right now that in whole the free market is a bad place. One thing we forget to consider, and give ourselves a break for, is that the US is a baby country. We’re still learning to read by comparison to most other industrialized nations. Additionally, our version of a free (globalized) market is brand spankin’ new. We’re still working out the kinks. This economic fall out we are experiencing right now may be a gigantic cleanse that the market is going through as we learn the limits on banks, credit, and non-tangible commodities like the stock market. The closure of factories and loss of manufacturing jobs might just be part of the restructuring of the ‘Corporation’. New factories and manufacturing jobs can be made here on US soil if we choose to do so conscientiously.
“We need to educate consumers.”
Everyone needs to be educated. Not just on labor and materials costs, but on the origination of everything. A person used to know where Japanese Maple came from and understood the labor of whittling or carving. They also understood the cost of living in their own community, presumably the same as the artisan’s. And so they could comprehend the value of a carved armchair from the local artisan. Now we buy the same chair from World Market or Pier 1 with absolutely no idea about who made it, where it was made, how long it took to make, who the crafts person is supporting, what their wage is, etc. Now we also need to consider the global, environmental effects of using a certain material.
Sure, Wal-mart may put clothes on your children and diapers and food, too, but all of those items come to you with a consequence somewhere else and actually consequences here, too. I’m not saying children don’t deserve to be clothed or fed, but it is important to think about where it’s coming from so that we’ll be ready to make the better decision when we are able to.
“We need a new marketing strategy.”
I think marketing strategies are part of the problem. I think they imply pulling a fast one on the consumer. Like almost tricking them into purchasing from you instead of the next guy, artisan or copycat. The consumer knows that and so is wary.
I think we need to be honest with consumers. Transparency builds trust. We need to recognize their individual importance and treat them accordingly. I think it’s fair for a consumer to be privy to your labor wage and materials cost. Just like it’s fair for them to know where your materials come from and who actually makes your product. If we want educated consumers we have to be willing to actually educate them. We can’t continue hiding things from eachother because we fear competition.
I’m going to put something else out there… I recently read Meg Mateo Ilasco’s Craft, Inc. I was really put off by the push towards outsourcing that I sensed from her book. Partly because she didn’t say anything about outsourcing within the US (like taking on an apprentice) and partly because she assumed that the actual making of things isn’t important to the crafts-business person. Personally I am slightly more in love with the act of making something than with coming up with the idea. I would gladly make other people’s ideas if it was a valued trade which I could make a living at but alas it is not. So I come up with my own ideas and work for myself. I was also dismayed by the way she tried to play it off like outsourcing was okay if you did it through a certain organization cause you’ll be helping women in India or Africa or Peru. Give me a break. Helping women in other countries doesn’t change the fact that you are still taking possible US jobs and putting them in another country or the fact that you are working outside the confines of your own economy. It’s cheating if you look at it simply. It would be like playing a game of scrabble and getting you letters from a separate pot than everyone else. You end up coming ahead because actually you aren’t playing the same game as the other players.
That being said, we need to be honest with ourselves. What do we as makers value about our crafts and businesses? Do we value greed and cheating, or do we value fairness and healthy competition?
Okay, that’s my long and tiresome piece. I’m going to go read what Meaghan has to say now over at Queering Domesticity.
I have an odd but interesting perspective on this, since much of my income is derived from making rosaries and religious jewelry. Over the years, people have questioned me quite a bit over the prices of my work. Here are the points I try to make again and again:
1) None of the parts of your rosary emerged from sweatshop labor.
2) As closely as I can determine, the environment was not harmed in making your rosary–not in forming the metal parts, not in making the beads, not in digging the stones out of the earth.
3) The metal parts of your rosary don’t contain any lead or cadmium.
4) Each part of your rosary is of the highest quality I can come up with.
5) It takes me a lot of time and effort to ensure all of this, and that is why your rosary may be more expensive. I also pay myself a living wage.
It gives my customers some food for thought. It also translates very easily to other hand-crafted objects. I have (after three years of research) come up with a small line of “affordable and beautiful” pieces at set prices. They’re quite plain, but their “ingredients” live up to my five points, above.
I haven’t done as well on Etsy with either my rosaries or my secular jewelry, but I have quite a following on my own Website and also do well at local shows.
I think it’s important to set up a list of points similar to mine and then to stick to them. I stand by the quality of each piece that I make.
Regards,
Anne
Wow this is great – love all the varied points here very thought provoking! I subscribing for updates!
Thanks,
mary
Rory Sutherland gives an account about how advertising can help change people’s perspectives on quality and value:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/rory_sutherland_life_lessons_from_an_ad_man.html
This is a really good Ted Talk. And he’s really funny 🙂
“What I can see is that they employ the elderly, handicapped and give the middle class a place to save.
I don’t think Walmart has anything to do with handmade. ”
Kerry Alice,
What Walmart does is offer goods at artificially low prices. As a culture, we have become accustomed to those prices and we don’t realize just how artificial the cost is. The reality is that Walmart is able to offer those low prices because they use extremely cheap foreign labor and pay their employees poorly. More Walmart employees are on welfare that any other company in the U.S. So, while we don’t pay more for our toothpaste, we pay more for the government to help those people who cannot support themselves or their families on the jobs they have at Walmart. We still end up paying.
What Walmart has to do with handmade is just that we see those cheap prices and don’t understand why anyone else would have to charge more.
Very interesting points being made here, and so eloquently!
I was very excited when I discovered Etsy and I love the site. One of the reasons was I had tried ebay and found that people were not willing to pay the prices I wanted to charge. I thought, at last, a place where people understand what goes into making something. Now, especially after reading some of the comments here, I am questioning that reasoning. I still think that the handmade is valued on Etsy, but issues such as the price of Meauman’s cozy/cuffs are worrying.
Having said that, I constantly struggle with pricing and still wonder if I am too low, when it comes down to actually getting a fair price for my time and getting it beyond the hobby phase. I would be horrified to think that I was helping perpetuate the “cheap”.
I totally agree, you need to find the right market, and I thought Etsy was it. Some people will just never get it, or care for that matter. To be honest, I think half the battle is understanding where products come from and some of the issues in their production. The next step is to do something about it, starting by changing some of your buying habits. However, I don’t think anyone should be made to feel guilty by buying essentials from chain stores – we can’t be 100% ethical, 100% of the time, it’s just not possible unless you are self sustainable!!!
For many years now I have been defending properly priced craft. People are so desperate to sell that they believe that pricing cheaply is the only way they can move their work. My first line of defense with a questioning customer asking “how long does it take you to make this?” is “two hours and twenty years”. If you make quality work, you also have to factor in your training and expertise in addition to base costs.
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In general people expect cheap. Folks often don’t realize the cost of an artist creating an object and then selling it. Thank you Megan so much for starting this discussion, it’s something I stress about daily.
I am a seamstress and pricing is a very difficult topic for me. I spend hours on a a single garment and spend a fair amount of money on quality materials. I cannot turn out $12 dresses like Old Navy and Target who are powerhouses with sweatshops to back them up. They create disposable garb for the masses and I do realize I have a better quality and more interesting product by far. Honestly, it hurts that this is not recognized more often. If folks really knew how little money is being made by the artist they might be blown away.
This was a really thought-provoking post and the comments have been tremendous. I feel like there’s probably something to say in there about how a company is a group of people who working together can produce something more efficiently than they each could on their own. (My Etsy shop is a collective – a friend and I work on it.) And so there should be price gains — or some other kind of gain — to be made from getting everyone to work together.
I think the gains to be made from creating/selling full time vs part time (particularly when Etsy is just one place you sell) is that there is likely going to be a difference in quality. The more you do something, the better you get at it. Someone who makes things full time is likely going to have a higher-quality product than someone who sells as an extension of their hobby simply because they’re typically spending more time on it. The business problem then becomes: how do you communicate the higher quality to the customer, particularly online where they can’t inspect the goods side-by-side?
I’m going to be curious in the upcoming months – in light of the changes the new Etsy CEO is indicating – how Etsy is going to change their tools for allowing us to show and market our products.
wow- some great thoughts. thanks! for me its worth spending money on something handmade i really like, and besides, it’s really good to know that someone got a fair price for it, and that the money ends where it should end, namely the producer (and not some company inbetween). i even think the pricing on etsy is rather on the low end than the high end! but this may be because i’m coming from one of the most expensive cities in the world, zurich.
i admire all of you people who can make a living out of selling things on etsy. keep it up!
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Wow–this is a great conversation, with so many good points. I think this is an important topic and I would love nothing more than for everyone to understand and appreciate the value of handmade, for all makers to get paid a fair wage and be able to support themselves with something that feeds their soul (myself included), for everyone to have the ability (whether through making themselves or being able to afford buying indie) to surround themselves with beautiful handmade things.
But I wonder if part of this backlash against the culture of cheap isn’t in some way related to the myth of the American Dream? Are we mad because everyone expects us to sell our wares for cheap, or are we mad because we’re not as successful as we dream to be? Don’t get me wrong: I decry the cheapening of America just as much as the next maker, and I do my best to educate people about the value of handmade. But I also wonder if sometimes we get too big for our britches? We can’t all be Martha, Amy Butler, or even one of the few people on Etsy who make 100k per year.
This is where Etsy *does* do us a real disservice: the Quit Your Day Job feature gives many the misguided notion that if they just play their cards right, list often enough, participate in the forums in just the right way, then they too can become a featured seller, quit their day job, and bask in endless glory while raking in thousands. But this just isn’t realistic for most of us (and many don’t realize the hidden cost of being a full-time maker, as a recent NY Times article highlighted). Most of us will never be the beautiful face discovered at a football game, the amazing voice picked out of a high school choir, the next Martha Stewart (just like we can’t all be doctors and lawyers).
I see a common theme in these features again and again: people whose spouses make enough money to support two people, freeing up the second person to craft full-time and put extra time and energy into running a viable business. We don’t all fit that mold. Some of us crafters make more money at our day jobs than our spouses do. Some of us have partners and children that rely on the health-insurance afforded by our steady day jobs. And some of us just plain aren’t ambitious enough to take our business to the next level, but we expect it to be handed to us anyway.
This may sound bitter or jealous, and I honestly don’t mean it to. I am making some broad generalizations here to highlight my points (maybe ineloquently), and I am so, so happy for anyone who has found a way to support themselves with their art. (and, full disclosure: I myself have the long-term goal of supporting myself solely from my craft.
The other side to this is that most of us just simply can’t afford to support handmade 100% of the time.
As an indie business owner myself, I understand the value of handmade. I want to support it as much as I can. I want to pay makers for their time and wear beautiful handcrafted dresses and carry lovingly handmade purses. But I also need to reroof my house and put in a new furnace and put food (hopefully local and organic, but same issues here) on the table. So I make compromises. I buy most of my clothing staples and my toothpaste from Target, while buying either small or really special occasion things handmade. I buy veggies and bread from a big box grocery store, but pasture-raised meat from the co-op. I do trades with other artists.
I am sad that I can’t support all my local farmers year-round, and that I can’t buy everything I need and want from a skilled tradesman. Our society, as a whole, needs to get better at valuing the real over the superficial (whether its food, goods, services, or even status and relationships). But change, especially really big sea changes like restructuring an entire cultural viewpoint, takes time. Lots of time.
So in the meantime, I do what I can, whether its educating others about why this stuff matters, voting for people who align with my values, or by putting as much of money as possible into the hands of locals or artisans.
Again, a good an important conversation for all of us to be having, and I appreciate everyone’s unique view of this challenging issue.
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What an intensely interesting and relevant topic, thank you.
I don’t sell crafts, but I do photography and sketch artwork on the side and I really, really, REALLY struggle with pricing. I want to share the things I make or I wouldn’t do it. Most of my friends are artists/musicians/social workers and we end up trading for many things — but then I have a hard time turning to someone else and asking for fees. My friends tell me that they’d gladly pay more for the things I do and I’m sure they are right — in this case, the problem isn’t so much about the Marketplace, the problem is me. My husband considers himself an artisan (of the software development kind) and earns a very good rate consistent with his work — he says that his ability to command a good hourly rate simply comes down to his ability to quote it with a straight face. I’m not sure if this is a Marketplace thing, a gender thing, or personality thing… but I do feel he has a point. I could make more of a job out of this if I was willing to have the backbone to charge accordingly.
I love Etsy, but have lately been using it as a springboard and gone to artists’ and crafters’ personal sites from their Etsy pages.
I just came over from the discussion on http://www.plushroomsoup.com and I’d like to begin by saying this discussion is very, very important. The issue is both cultural and maker related as was pointed out in Ellen Ruppel Shell’s book. It also an issue that not only effects folks on Etsy or hand made creators it is an issue related to our fundamental ability to value things created from our hearts.
I’ve experienced the problem of devaluing creativity for decades not only as artist myself but also as a designer, architect, and photographer. The problem has its’ basis in a historical failure of creatives to de-commoditize their work, and I don’t think this is purposeful, instead I think it comes from lack of knowledge, a historically negative view of selling art and a shortage of the tools needed to seriously market what we create.
All of this is changing very quickly as the web becomes more and more interactive and available which in turn has spawned research and new paradigms for marketing. Those are the paradigms Seth Godin talks about, their foundation is our increasing ability to identify our markets, those who relate to what we make, which in the end shifts the focus from our work as commodity to our work as something that reflects who we are, placing the value on us as the creators and emphasizing the link between our vision and what we produce.
Before the interactivity of the web we were limited in the way we could let ourselves be found and in turn develop a strong following of as Seth puts it…sneezers, people who would not only buy our stuff but also tell their friends about us as well.
There are a number of ways this can all sift out…one way is for experienced creators/makers help part time or emerging creators learn how to build their niche and buyer following. The result will likely be a change in buyer behavior as more and more creators de-commoditize their work. The final result is more people would have hand made work in their lives because the see how it influences their lives. In the process, price points will be determined and based on the creator’s decisions about how deeply they want to be in the market, they can choose their price points based on their own niche, buyer profiles etc. and not on a random shot in the dark.
I’ve seen this effect in the photography market especially wedding photography, with the emergence of what I call Uncle Bob’s and Debbie Digitals. When they first showed up photographers were outraged at the fact that these inexperienced people were undercutting their work when in fact what they were doing was carrying the commoditization to its’ extreme. The industry has now recognized that there will always be clients who only care about price and don’t even consider value or quality. Consequently, photographers are now rebranding themselves, actively participating in social media and developing followers through their blogs. While the industry is still in the process of segmenting and shifting, more and more potential clients are seeing and valuing the skills and vision the photographer brings to them.
The same thing could happen with hand made work and like photography there will always be those who feel comfortable as commodities and because the knowledge is now available to those who want to develop their own markets regardless of geography or other previous limitations, they will be free to grow as much as they desire.
So instead of everyone competing as commodities by price point the handmade industry can grow into a very diverse community. And, the ability to develop multiple income streams from handmade work will help the entire community as makers, sell their work in different markets, become mentors and even teach.
One thing I do know is that change is certain and things are changing so fast, exposing more and more opportunities at smaller scales than ever before.
I agree with pretty much all the sentiments here – thanks for the thought provoking discussion everyone!
so while I’ll be the first to admit I’m a pretty big pessimist, I think what we all need to remember is that this “fight” isn’t anything new – it goes on everyday in the independent music business, the indie film business, and within pretty much every brick and mortar boutique. How can you compete with the big guys? The indie music scene is becoming huge, so I guess that’s comforting … I think the biggest issue we have is infiltrating the mainstream – etsy is awesome but it’s really a super niche market, my mother still can’t figure out how to buy through it.
but my main question is what can we do? like today. like right now. We all bitch and complain about the Walmart shoppers but we need concrete combat tactics. Can we make clearer descriptions in our promotional materials? behind the scenes videos to educate the public? I noticed that on the retail fair days when I actually brought my jeweler’s saw and patterns to a craft show I got more business. or at least I got less “why is this so expensive?” comments. Even saying “hand-cut” silver is still so mystifying to non-art people, they need a serious visual if not a tutorial. I think ultimately, non-artsy people love hand made goods and will spend for them, they just need to be covertly educated in a non-condescending way.
I also think the etsy community needs to get out and support brick and mortar shops by getting serious about wholesale and consignment (which I know is a huge hurdle for people with lower priced goods but let’s not go there right now!) We need more indie boutiques to be an alternative to all the Walmarts! and those places need our merch! While I think there are certain wholesale shows that seem to be the best bang for the buck, there are shows like the Buyers Market of American Craft that are specifically for handmade in the US merchandise. Granted they are in a transitional phase (I think, I hope) trying to get fresh artists and hipper buyers. I believe they should be rewarded for their efforts. By rewarded, I guess I mean graced with our awesomeness! We should also be rewarding those brick and mortars who are dedicated to selling only US handmade goods. More buyers will come to these shows if they develop a reputation for being “the place” for new up and coming designers – I would love to see Renegade sellers take over and revive these old shows! But this requires us crafters to get serious, hence Craft MBA!
What is really exciting and inspiring to see at these shows is that there are thousands of people doing this for a living, and have been for years, we’re the next generation. Granted things are way different (globalization, walmart, health care costs, blah blah) but we have way more resources at our disposal these days, there’s got to be way to do this successfully.
wait, did I get totally off topic?! I just realized I used the words “infiltrate”, “combat”, and “covert” in my musings, whoah. I’m really not that aggressive … sorry!
HI just thought I would jump in after reading all the posts.
I think this is a world wide problem but that we can work hard to change it.
I am in new zealand and I have to admitt that we haven’t been hit by the recession as badley as the Us so people are still spending here.
Friends of mine run a craft gallery and refuse to ever have a sale as it devalues the artists work – anyone asking for a discount gets the same response and almost every time that person will hapily pay full price.
We also have several web sites that you have to apply to be involved with that market the artist products by telling their story making you understand the time that goes into each product. ( call Cleaver bastards )
I have to addmitt I have stoped shopping on etsy as I got tired of having to trawl through so many products that were of poor quality.
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This topic has been comgin up in my world a lot lately. I have 2 etsy stores and numerous other web sites where I work hard to sell my wares and skills. I was doing the math on a Amy Butler’s liverpool tunic shirt that I sewed for myself the other day. And I was going through all the costs in my head. The Japanese Echino fabric, the pattern, the time it took me to sew the shirt, the 2nd trip to fabric store for enough snaps. The vintage buttons for a more unique detail on the cuff just to name a few and I was easily over hundred bucks. And then I asked myself would I go into a store and spend over $100 for this fabulous new tunic that I just made? And my answer was no. And I asked myself why wouldn’t I pay that? And the only answer I could come up with was because I can’t find the style I like at a store around me, that will fit me well and last a long time. That is why I decided to make it myself.
And then I asked myself if everyone had to make their own clothes do you think people would value good craftsmanship more? Would people appreciate quality and realize that they don’t need 5 “not so great” $20 shirts and that one $100 great fitting handmade item is really much better. I think the answer would be yes.
Especially since I am a pretty good seamstress and I felt challenged with the tunic. Was it hard to sew no. Did it take some time to buy the fabric, wash it and lay it out and cut the pattern and then sew it. Why yes it did. Were their parts in the pattern that made me putting on my thinking cap and go how do I do that? Yes there were. Did I feel good once I completed it Heck yah I did. Would I make another. Heck yah this is my second one already. I think that most people don’t know how much time it takes to do something and how hard it is to get everything to line up perfectly and look tailored.
I think encouraging people to take up a craft is a great way for them to educate themselves on how much work is involved. I also think that is why so many other artists are happy to support other artists.
Will I continue to make things. Oh yeah. Will I continue to support others who make handmade things yes. Let’s all demand quality things that last a long time. Let’s stop being a throw away society.
The prices on Etsy are ridiculously low. I definitely agree that it is a Pro-Am climate there. If you are selling earrings for $3 dollars how on earth can you possible make any profit at all after supplies, etsy fees and then paypal fee. It is amazing. What also is amazing is that, “Profit” seems to be a negative word in the forums over there. Great article.
I also believe that if people bought one well-crafted handmade handbag instead of 5 cheap ones to match all outfits, or one handcrafted original real wool scarf instead of a half dozen cheap synthetic mass-marketed ones, and paid a realistic price for these one-of-a-kind items, they would cherish them so much more. I only own a few handmade accessories which are so precious, while people around me seem to just go through so many disposable items. What a gigantic waste!
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hi, just weighing in here that this is a great thread. i entered etsy as a venue to show my small paintings and drawings, and have a great regard for all of the craft and art on the site. because i’m also obsessed with vintage, etsy has become my outlet for that. i am often overawed by the quality of manufacture that went into making a piece of vintage / antique clothing or eyewear — as well as the great care and loving attention that must have been taken through the many years these items were owned by another person or people (sometimes seventy-five years of care, of the items I currently list!). to me this is what makes these things remarkable, that they have been cared for and have survived quite well through the years., and this is what creates their value, which is irreplaceable –e specially true of handmade pieces.
I recently read “Cheap” and it has really supported my priority to never short-change myself or my customer. Not everyone will be my customer. That’s fine. I can’t provide a well-made, well-designed item all by myself if billions of people were to be my customers! So, let my living wage filter some out, thank you. That does not mean I, and all the other wonderful makers out there, cannot make a living doing what we love. We just have to apply our creativity to our entire lives and find multiple streams of income to supplement our selling items.
Thanks for a great post and to all of the others who left comments- great dialogue!
This is exactly why I’m cautious about art fairs and shows I enter – if it’s an arts and craft show, I pass it up. It’s been my experience that those shows attract only people looking to buy some $5 wooden thing on a stick, not fine art. I’d be interested in what other fine artists’ experiences have been
It depends on the fair or show.
You can look these up: Walnut Creek Wine Festival versus the Marin Art Festival. On the surface, same sort of thing. Walk the booths, far different.
I enjoyed reading this article and the responses immensely. I have a quandry about competition among my website and Etsy… I feel that I have to lower my prices on Etsy, but need to have my prices higher (and frankly, more appropriate) for my website. I feel the Etsy site provides some exprosure, but should I have the prices be the same across the board? Am I selling myself short on Etsy?
@Danielle
I really think you should maintain your price structure. Your work is what it is and you should price it accordingly. I find that my ceramic work is naturally priced a little high for Etsy, but I feel like the quality of the work and the presentation of the work is good. I am finding that presentation makes all the difference and people are not hesitating to buy my $25-$50 pieces.
Thanks Charles! I have seen your work, and it is worth every penny – plus some 🙂
I agree with you regarding pricing, but as a jewelry artist, who specializes in solid silver antique/vintage coins and rare flatware (predating 1940s), I don’t sell well on etsy – lots of page views and positive feedback. However, I sell very well on 1000markets and on my website. My direct competition on Etsy is very talented, but works with silver plate – a totally different product, really – but the Etsy consumer doesn’t understand that, despite my efforts at education. I am considering taking down my etsy shop, worrying that the exposure it provides isn’t worth the effort of maintaining and marketing the shop or improving my business rep.
I do think Etsy is an amazing place filled with incredible talent that might otherwise go undiscovered. I shop and purchase regularly on Etsy and never been disappointed (all my Christmas gifts were Etsy purchases!).
In response to your comment Danielle. I have made the decision to close my Etsy store and concentrate on my own website. I received a lot of lovely comments about my work and had lots of hearts, but in reality they don’t equate to sales. I struggle with the pricing concept especially when people come to my house to look at my stuff then say they can buy it cheaper at the mall – it is really disheartening. My husband encourages me by saying “you don’t want to sell to people like that any way.” He often says I price my stuff too cheap and I should be marketing myself to people who will spend more money to buy quality hand crafted stuff and not mass produced “cheap and nasty” things.
Danielle,
Thanks for the kind words 🙂
you said:
“I am considering taking down my etsy shop, worrying that the exposure it provides isn’t worth the effort of maintaining and marketing the shop or improving my business rep.”
And I think you may be right, once you have done all you can and you still find minimal response then that particular market may not be best for you.
I like to think about it this way..I put my ideas about what is good out there in the form of pottery. If someone agrees with me they buy it. If I could get 1/1000th of the people in the country to agree with me I’d be wealthier than Bill Gates. You just have to look for the like minded people.
Maybe 1000Markets and your website is a more direct link to those people. Is there anything to do to increase the flow of like minded people to those existing and profitable sites?
I had mixed feelings to my shop on Etsy last year when it first opened, but when we figured out some of the “tricks” it all came together and I am sending out packages daily. We all have to find that direct link to our most receptive customers. I hope that you find yours!
Best Wishes,
Charles
After reading all these comments I can’t help but notice that “educating the public” on the quality of handmade keep coming up. I know for a fact that there are many, many people who are educated. They put on and jury the craft shows that I participate in. They line up for hours to get into them and buy from the handmade artists who are participating. They are the artists themselves who buy and support their fellow crafters. But selling online is a different story. I am thankful that my show season is approaching and I will be around these people once again.
If you are discouraged at the underpricing that goes on online then I suggest that you try to participate in a juried craft show, I think that you may be surprised at how knowledgeable some of the customers there are.
Kerry Alice, I agree with you 100% that the educated consumers are out there, and juried shows are certainly the place to find them. I do shows most weekends, many of them juried, but I would be hard pressed if I didn’t sell online as well. Customers aren’t just born educated about handmade products, it takes time to build up that knowledge. Not everyone lives near good craft shows, so online may be their only resource. It would be foolish to think we can’t educate our customers about the value of handmade through our online shops. It’s harder than doing in person at a show, because most people won’t take the time to email you a question they have about your work, they’ll just click right through, so we have to anticipate their questions and concerns. But, it’s completely possible, and my big goal for this year, to do my best to show my customers why my products are amazing and completely worth every penny, without ever touching them.
I’ve been reading this thread for weeks and have already posted to it once. It’s becoming more and more thought-provoking, and I read and think about each and every reply.
What’s beginning to worry me is the nagging thought that Etsy may be somehow losing its way. I have a clear-cut mental distinction between Etsy and sites like eBay, and somehow that distinction is becoming blurred. An example or two:
1) I want a particular vintage Samsonite case from a particular era in a particular color. I don’t want it upcycled, decorated, re-purposed, or otherwise altered. I just want it to be in good condition. This, to me, is an eBay item. I’ll deal with the huckstering, the tacky “L@@K” banners, the bad spelling, and all the rest of it. I may haggle a bit, and I’ll feel free to make an offer. Same goes for old fountain pens and their parts, bits of computer stuff, even the “knuckle buster” I use at shows. Those are eBay items, and I’ll deal with the atmosphere.
2) I want a custom knitted cowl to fit in the neck of my new coat. I’m allergic to pure wool, but I’m not fond of acrylic. I find a knitter whose work I like who takes requests. I point out to her several cowls she’s made that I like, and I tell her about my allergies. She comes back with a suggested design and materials and names her price and time frame. The deal is struck, the cowl arrives in due course, and I gladly pay the asking price. This is an Etsy transaction. It’s civilized and respectful of the artisan and her craft. I wouldn’t dream of haggling. If I can’t afford the price, I might say something like, “Your work is beautiful! I can’t afford it now, but I’ll be back in touch to order one before next winter…”
It’s the difference in shopping at Hell Mart for a new car battery or visiting a fine boutique to look at designer clothing.
I’m very sad to find that the distinctions between the two sites are blurring. I’m finding things like “never used” Disney DVD’s on Etsy. I’m finding sellers who duplicate other sellers’ work with no shame at all. I’m finding items that must have been manufactured by contract employees who are underpaid–because I know no indie crafter could produce and sell for those prices. The dreaded “Thanks for L@@King” is creeping in. Half the people who have hearted my brand-new shop want to sell me supplies, and half of those sellers want to sell me stuff I could find at Michael’s–if I shopped at Michael’s.
At one point, Etsy was the online equivalent of that juried local show, with buyers and sellers who understood what that meant. Now…not so much. At this point, Etsy’s value to me lies in an exceptionally active and dynamic street team to which I belong. For that reason, I’ll keep pursuing it. But I sell more locally and from my own website.
It’s funny because I was just talking to someone the other day about the “ebay effect” on the yard sale/flea market/vintage world- all those prices have gone up.
It’s uncanny that within hours after I posted that comment, somebody on Regretsy (my secret vice) posted a link to a store that is clearly selling items from Overstock.com. They’re not even making any efforts to conceal the fact. That led to a mini-outpouring of links to similar Etsy sites. It’s doubly bad because the items are not only not handmade or vintage, they’re probably mostly manufactured in sweatshops. And there’s another unspoken cultural “thing” at Etsy involving not ratting out one’s fellow Etsians. The vultures are really learning to take advantage of that.
Thank you so much for this article! So true so true!
I think that by spreading the word of how much talent, time and love we put into our work (either through FB, blogs, our online stores) that people will be able to appreciate the price a handmade item Should cost!
So thank you for helping get the word out:)
And thanks for the recommended reading!
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My Dad put it all into perspective for me. He told a story of a man who walked into his print shop in the ’60s and needed a business card. Dad gave the order to his artist, and the fellow knocked in out in 10 minutes. When the customer was presented with the bill for $50 for design services, he balked and griped about how it only took the artist 10 minutes. The artist calmly said, “Yes, but it took me 20 years to learn how to do it.” The customer didn’t complain anymore.
My formula for pricing came from the book, the Graphic Artist’s Pricing and Ethical Guidelines. You take the cost of your materials, add a per-hour salary and then double it to give yourself a guide for pricing. Of course, some things just can’t be done this way or they would never sell, and others have to be priced higher, such as things for which you have formulated a technique, for instance, that no one else can do and is just really cool and in demand. You just have to figure what the market will bear.
This is just my two cents. Thanks for listening to the story about my dad.
Great story Candice, and great advice! Well said!
I wanted to say that I think every market has it’s place in our society, including Walmart and Etsy. I have a shop on Etsy. I don’t cut my prices to try to sell there. I am using it more as a place to gain some exposure. I have also been know to shop at Walmart…for things like toilet paper and such. But when it comes to art, I would never consider buying something from a large chain store. I want art that is unique and high in quality. I don’t want something that everyone else has or has seen. I believe that more and more this is becoming the mindset. The people who can afford more than Walmart has to offer are shopping online and at art shows for that perfect piece that is going to be unique to their home or office and are willing to pay the higher price to get it.
Others here have said it and I agree, it is all about figuring out who you are trying to sell your goods to, and getting exposure in that venue. If you set up at the local church craft show in the suberbs you are much less likely to be able to sell higher end art than if you go to the higher end art shows. Value yourself enough to do the research required to determine your market and the best places to sell your goods. Value your time and end product enough to sit down and figure out the cost of making and marketing (and all of the other expenses of running a business) before you price your work. If you don’t know how to do this, there are many books and articles online to help. Don’t ever under price just to get a quick sale.
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I absolutely agree about this culture of cheap. It also extends to services surrounding our marketing and selling of hand made items. For example, Etsy and eBay posting boards are filled with people wanting to get free, detailed advice on setting up a business from start to finish from already busy crafters rather than taking the time to do a little research on their own. Note that these crafters have had to navigate setting up a business on their own and have often had to pay for set up costs themselves. This isn’t a slam against sharing or creating a crafting community. Those things are great. It’s just that we often forget that web designers, PR people, and other crafters are trying to make a living too.
I know that it can be confusing to take the plunge and go from selling a few items on a card table at the church sale to filing formal paperwork for an LLC or Sole Proprietorship since state and local laws are so different. It can also seem intimidating, because many in the craft world shy away from valuing their work enough to make their efforts formal and professional by establishing a business structure and researching what the best options are for tax structure. However, expecting lawyers, business owners, designers, PR firms, etc. to provide free advice is also playing into the culture of cheap. I’ve seen requests that go way beyond casual “should I do…” to wanting detailed information that normally would cost a professional several hours of time and yet this is expected for free. Here I’m talking about expectations way beyond casual input to expecting step-by-step guidance. Here is a common example of what I’m referring to (made up, but you get the gist):
“Hi! I’m selling some candles. Could any of you tell me how to go about setting up a website, how to price my items, or how to market them?”
This is way different than coming to the table with a few options already in mind and getting a casual form of feedback on which direction to go. I do notice that most posts along the lines of the one above tend to get ignored…for a reason!
I love this discussion. I am a crafter, with no Etsy shop currently and if things don’t improve over there I will never be setting one up in the future either. Okay, as far as the “no ratting each other out” culture goes, screw that! I say that Etsy needs to get a handle on things and start upholding the parameters of the site that THEY established and as CONSUMERS we should be letting them know that we don’t like seeing things that don’t belong there!
I began to really understand the issues of Cheap when I was working for a company who sold goods to Wal Mart. At the time I began working for this company they were manufacturing most of their products in the US (8-10 yrs ago). Wal Mart always wanted more, more, more for less, less and less. Guess what? Those same goods are now being made in China and other country’s to meet the demands of Wal Marts Cheapness. I believe the tides of change are a coming though, this sort of consumerism is not sustainable. Consumers are more educated about value and even thought we are not in the height of the luxury market like the late 80’s and 90’s there is still a good market for what we might label as luxury goods. I think the lines are blurring between luxury and mass market as illustrated by the example of the $40 tee shirt! The key here is marketing and marketing requires educating our customers about the VALUE of what we are selling. We can affect the market place. I see a lot of correlations between the design/craft/art world and the food/agriculture worlds. Both are dealing with major issues of cheapness and are trying to fight back by educating consumers.
I also LOVE the story Candice shared about the business card. I am starting a business for myself and just yesterday had to tell my first client what my hourly rate was. He semi balked and said that my price was what people in my same field charge in NY (I’m in DC) and I said yes, but I have been in this business for 12 years and I’m right here locally available to you. He didn’t say anything else! So, it takes confidence in yourself and market research to know what your true value is.
I agree that you can’t change the marketplace but the internet can bring your product directly to the segment that would know the value.
After a lot of back and forth thinking about the cheap factor on Etsy and it’s potential effect on my higher priced product, I went ahead and opened a shop. I believe that my product will be found by buyers who understand the value of unique and handmade, and they will appreciate being able to interact with the artist. If I present myself as a full time professional established artist my prices will seem realistic.
For now I consider my Etsy shop to be an experiment of sorts. I think the concept and site have great potential for fine artists and craftspersons to sell directly in the global marketplace. I guess I will see how it goes—but I will not lower my prices.
Very informative post. I agree with you about how disheartening it is to see “cheap” handmade goods. I can only speak for myself here, I work a full time job and I have an Etsy shop. I take my Etsy business very seriously and feel that my customers are receiving a quality product and the pricing reflects that. Each piece is created with much care, thought and, well, love. I love my craft, that goes into the creative process. It’s all part of the joy of buying handmade. I also do alot of shopping on Etsy. I adore being able to own pieces of jewelry or art that are not mass produced and are one of a kind. I would never dream of haggling over a price, I would expect to pay what the artist is asking.
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Wow, great topic and comments…
I am in the minority, but wanted to provide some input from a more likely than not “cheap” Etsy seller (myself). I prefer to describe my shop prices as accessible, attainable, and inexpensive. While I realize that my confessed “cheap” pricing may provide even more debate about the devaluing of handcrafted work and Etsy’s image, I personally do not view it in this manner.
I am an R.N. and work full-time for a large federal agency, and through my job, I am reminded on a consistent basis of how many, many Americans are struggling financially. Issues related to unemployment, underemployment, job insecurity, loss of credit, and loss of financial stability are forcing Americans to become “cheap”.
While I appreciate and understand the time, effort, committment, creativity, and funds necessary to craft handmade items, I also feel that I must be realistic about our current economic crisis. My shop’s mission is to provide buyers the ability to purchase a lovely, reasonably priced, quality item which is pretty and and makes them smile. I realize; however, that I have the ability to do this since I would be considered a “hobbyist”. I love this quote, which is taken from the book “The Handmade Marketplace” by Kari Chapin: “Sometimes making money at something is what can kill it”.
I would also like to briefly touch upon discussion about junk and other stuff made in China and/or other third world countries. Despite our own economical issues, I think we as Americans are quite indulged and perhaps do not understand the hardships of other people around the globe. I guess the nurse in me tries to feel empathy for all people, whether they are producing junk or not…for example, I don’t consider items at the dollar store as junk…more so as an item produced by another human being who may just be trying to feed their family.
I don’t feel that artisans should be upset or resentful at lower priced items; the true value of a craft is indeed in our own eyes and hearts 🙂
Best wishes to everyone in their business endeavors.
I use Etsy as an inexpensive way to display, sell and update my jewelry. It provides a very small percentage of my sales ( mostly craft shows). I cannot count the time people have said that I’m underpriced, but that, as others have said, is when they see and handle the product. I have now raised my prices to reflect the cost including labor and profit margin needed if I sell wholesale as well as retail- and have seen a drop in Etsy sales, but not in show sales. Etsy buyers have comparison shopping at their finger tips and may not return to the original selection, in addition to their low priced mentality. In hand made comparisons may be odious.
The culture of “cheap” brings us wal-mart, and that is great when I want a cheap chain for my saw. It’s bad when I want to know why I need a new chain so soon or if I need it sharpened, because there is no one at wal-mart that can provide the value add to help me with that information. Wally-world has pushed out many Mom and Pop stores – and relocated town squares in the process. There are people that hate them for this – and people who don’t. I now buy my chain-saw chains from a local small engine guy to get the value add of his knowedge and experiance. I pay more per chain there.
Etsy sellers need to look at their market and provide the value add that is not available from the mass market. It takes longer to do that – but it builds a stronger business base in the process. The hobbiest that sell at or below cost (usually below – because they are only interested in getting more raw material to hobby on) do so to support their hobby. And that is OK. Though for those crafting items like your cozy, or the jewelry makers it has to be a real market problem.
To differentiate I keep my own site where I can explain why my stuff is “better” and guide a buyer to my shop as opposed to the whole of the Etsy marketplace. I’m not there yet – I have had to return to work to get income and capital. I know the model can work as there is at least one other seller in my business line that is making it. His prices are higher (and more accurate) then mine, and he has a resonable sales volume. He has created a brand.
I think that is how those that are trying to build a small business, that includings selling on Etsy, will get their market. That way I become like the small-engine guy that sells me chain. I go to him because I get added value, and I tell others to do the same.
I can see both sides to this picture very well. As I am seller and a buyer on Etsy and the real world.
For one, I have never seen Etsy as “cheap”. I see Etsy as a venue that has allowed millions of people around the world to sell their handmade goods and supplies …WOW ..its awesome. As a seller there, I am forever grateful for the success I have found with my business there. Because I LOVE what I do! I am able to use this extra income to get out of debt and donate to organizations as well. I am also grateful that they do not dictate how I should run my business, market it or price my items. Now that would be socialism. No thanks..I would rather live and learn through experiences. It’s all good. If one is persistant, puts in the research time and effort to market..you might find success….even when there are 1,700,000 listings of jewelry on that site. Its not impossible, believe it or not. What it is ..is a lot of hard work and effort!
As a buyer..if I like something..I will buy it if I can afford it. If not, I don’t buy it. If I get great pricing ..I am super delighted. We all can use a break..so thanks to those who get them! If I really want something more costly I think about it, maybe save the money and buy it. There are few things on Etsy that I truly need. There is a difference with “needing” something and “wanting” something. I try hard to first support my fellow Etsians, but I can’t buy everything I want right now either. I have children to raise and a mortgage to pay.
So, that leads me to say that “Yes” I do shop at Walmart occasionally. I don’t feel that I enjoy paying top price for generic medications for colds and allergies, toothpaste, toilet paper, light bulbs..etc…at some local shop to support my local reseller of these types of goods. No, I don’t buy clothing at Walmart for myself, but maybe for my toddler I would..they grow fast! There are things I would never buy at Walmart ever. BUT, shopping there for these type of things allows me to save money for things I may want later on Etsy. And I am grateful to my local Walmart who employs many people in my community, who can not get jobs elsewhere. They also let us park our RV for free at nights occasionally. They aren’t perfect, but they are all not so bad. I know Walmart also gives massive donations ..do the research. I know many companies who give nothing at all and charge an automatic membership fee every year.
When I save money, I can afford to go skiing, put my kids in club soccer, afford more traveling and buy better quality clothing ..etc.
Most importantly, I want to get out of debt and save money for my children to go to college. I feel like everything is really overpriced now..housing, medical cost, education, cars ..everything is up except your income.
The fact is we are all NOT created equal. Not all people can make the same income, inherit lots of money, and have the same type of body health to do so. We are NOT the same. We have to do what is right for each of us, whatever that may be.
The truth is you can pay whatever you want for anything it seems. Look around. The same sweater you see at the GAP can be found for $100 more at the top floor of Nordstrom. If you see something on Etsy that is priced too low…go ahead and offer them more money. I am sure this would not be a problem.
The real problem in this world ..is prices are too high..but this is my opinion. If your one of those people who don’t mind paying high prices for everything ..then so be it. Your welcome do so…but don’t complain about low pricing for someone else who can not afford your same status.
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I only stumbled across this side today and I am really glad I did! And thank you so much for triggering this discussion.
I am a crafter but I am also a baker in my free time. Recently due to popular demand I set up a part-time baking business. For me the most difficult process was and still is the pricing of my cakes. My prices are probably still not quite on the right level and rather on the low side but it is incredibly challenging finding a fair price structure – fair for yourself that is to get paid what your work is worth but also fair to the customer and not to overprice the products.
At some point I also considered to sell my cakes via Etsy but very soon I felt that I would never be able to compete with some of the prices and decided not to take this route, I felt like being forced to lower my prices just to be able to sell my products. And I didn’t want to diminish myself and the quality of my products by doing this.
I believe there needs to be more education, more help for consumers to understand the quality and work which goes into a handmade product but there also needs to be more support for the artists/crafters selling their products to understand how to price the items – not in business management terms but in real figures.
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My sales on Etsy are way above average for the site, based on the price of each piece sold.
I think I know the reason why my expensive (for Etsy) pieces do quite well there.
It may be that I never viewed Etsy as a place to find customers, or compete for customers, or worry about my prices relative to other Etsians.
Rather I set up my Etsy store as a comfortable alternative buying environment for people who had already discovered my work through my blog or website.
If people visiting my website or blog would be more comfortable spending a few hundred through Etsy instead of contacting me, then my store CritterVille provides them with that option.
I don’t worry about people finding a cheap alternative, because what I offer is uniquely me, and I’m the only one of me there is, so there is no alternative if it’s my work you want.
If you’re not that bothered who’s work you’re buying, you can always find a cheaper something somewhere else. Of course it might not be nearly as good, but that’s your choice…
I’ll provide for people who’s tastes are more particularly in line with mine.
I can’t be everything to everyone, but I can be the best ‘me’ possible, and for people who appreciate that, I wouldn’t want to be anything less.
Of course anyone discovering my bronzes through Etsy is free to buy them without ever having seen my website. And I’m sure that’s happened.
But as I said at the start, that was not my goal for CritterVille, and I believe that is why my expensive (for Etsy) pieces do quite well there.
One of my favorite quotes from Oscar Wilde is ‘Be yourself, because everybody else is already taken’.
Hi all. What an interesting discussion and one I came to by way of a search on Google for “low prices on Etsy” because I have noticed more and more of that.
My main product is handmade glass beads and the market for them has dropped in average price over the last 6-7 years dramatically. This was due to Ebay and heavy competition which lead to lower and lower prices for handmade glass beads. I resisted lowering my prices because my overhead costs have been high and I try very hard to make a quality product which takes me more time that some other beadmakers.
I then attempted Artfire as an alternative for more web exposure. So far, no sales there however I’m hopeful. I have done better on my own personal web store which I’ve had since 2000.
So I guess the bottom line here is this: people want cheap. Creators want to sell their product and if they don’t rely on it as a business income they will continue to drop prices in order to capture a larger part of the market. I believe this is a sad thing for Handmade — from anywhere in the world. I just hope enough people try doing handmade so they will understand the time and effort it takes. I will continue to attempt to educate more people but it is hard at times to make people understand.
Thanks for this extrememly interesting discussion. 🙂 Sylvia
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i make handmade soap.
my husband and i have been working at this fulltime for nine years.
our business is a success by anyone’s standards.
every week or so, someone asks me how can i possibly compete with my $8 bars of soap in a marketplace full of $1 bars of soap?
and my reply is:
i have an arrangement with all the makers of cheap soap.
i don’t compete with them on price….and they don’t compete with me on quality.
a handmade product offers the maker a chance to make something truly extraordinary and top-shelf.
in a world simply awash with generic plastic badly-made rubbishy crap, there is always some room at the top for a beautifully-made, premium, luxurious product.
my goal has never been to make the most soap…but to make the best soap i can.
and my customers seem to like that arrangement too.
I started on Etsy 2 months ago and was crazy with excitement to sell my craft that I love! I looked around to compare prices and put them at where I thought they were adiquit. I summoned others this evening to see what was thought of the prices and all the responses came back saying the prices were too low. I raised them.
Now I’m hearing a little negativity about Etsy, and I honestly feel hurt because I thought this was a fantastic place to sell. I’m not really into all the blogging, Face book and My Space crap, so I feel stumped as to where to try to get my items noticed.
It IS really hard to compete when you get a joke store like Walmart selling crap at cheap prices and you know you worked so hard on your stuff and put extra care and thought into all of it. How can I compete?
Here is a list of sites that help you promote your crafts.
http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6675261
I hope this helps.
But I’m wondering what is considered cheap and what isn’t. I’m not rich I’m a pretty poor post-college person. I spend a lot of money on clothing but I spend it on quality clothing. I love clothing made animal fibers. I love silks, wool, cashmere, organic cotton, bamboo. I’ve recently started buying all of my clothing vintage or handmade. My wardrobe is now mostly vintage and a few handmade items here and there. The average price for most things in my closet is between $30-$60 with the exception of shoes because my feet can’t tolerate vintage non-sandal shoes. Is this cheap?
I think when it comes to buying things a balance should be stuck between price and ethics.People should buy things that they like and that are ethically produced. I don’t think buying a handmade or a vintage shirt that costs $500 dollars is a good way to spend money. Since the chances are I could probably make the item myself or find something similar for a much cheaper price and donate the difference to a much worthier cause.
Great discussion! Thanks to everyone who has contributed, and especially to Patti, for so eloquently summing it up: “i don’t compete with them on price….and they don’t compete with me on quality.” I may have to make this into a plaque for the wall of my studio.
I’m on the verge of opening an etsy shop to sell upcycled clothing and such, and have been giving a lot of thought to how to price my work. In addition to the value of my time, creativity, and expertise, I have to deal with the challenge of the cost of my source materials, basically second-hand, recycled clothing.
‘Recycled’ doesn’t necessarily mean free, or even cheap, and I wonder how to convey the actual cost of using them (buying, washing, disassembly, etc.) as a part of my final asking price.
I have to believe that I will find those customers out there who understand this, and who feel it’s worth it to make the “greener” choice.
Best wishes to all for a happy and prosperous 2011!
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On the basis of this discussion, started last year, I bought and read ‘Cheap’. OMG, what a book!!!! It has CHANGED the way my little family and I live – from basics like purchasing groceries, to who I hire for legal/accounting/IT services etc.
Thanks so much for bringing this discussion to everybody, and for recommending this literally life-changing book.
This is where good value & innovation step in. You have to delineate yourself from the pack. I sell yarn & fiber batts on Etsy, so do many others. I could stand to raise my prices…..but in all practicality my overhead is very low. My house is paid for, and I really enjoy what I do.
The number one thing that takes the most time is photographing,editing,and listing product. The actual making of takes far less time. I hope that my customers see great stuff, well presented at a good value. They must, as I get repeat sales from a wide range of people.
This is an excellent article, that nails a valid point! I love it….
Wow I never really looked at it like that before. the whole “hollister/banana republic” argument. So HOW do we promote that handmade is better?
I keep raising my prices in hopes of good return. I think some people think the more it costs, the ‘better’ it must be. Even if they know nothing about the product.
As someone who has a vintage Etsy shop and works on it part-time and prices her items on the low average side of things (the average cost of something in my shop is probably $20-30), I agree with some of the things being said here. Yes, there is an art and quality inherent in many higher end, for Etsy, items in both the handmade and vintage categories. I do acknowledge and realize, as a buyer, that for the most part, the pricier items are generally nicer. In other words, you usually pay for what you get on Etsy. That being said, great photography, a cool image and lots of press don’t always equal a great or quality product, as I’ve also realized buying on Etsy.
On the other hand, I want to support artisans and vintage sellers like myself and I try to, but as a 20-something freelancer, I simply can’t afford to do it all the time. Like someone else said, I buy a mix of Target (don’t do Wal-Mart), vintage, handmade, and also designer/mall stuff for a lot of my belongings. I have to pick and choose where I want to spend my money and most young people shop this way. The only way I generally spend more then $25 on Etsy is if the shop’s presentation is super nice, the seller is responsive, they have good reviews and most importantly, I LOVE the item and have to have it. I’ve been disappointed with so many vintage and handmade purchases from Etsy and honestly don’t want to invest in something I may not like or may not fit in person. I factor all of this in when pricing my own garments. I think it helps to have been a buyer on etsy first before being a seller in this way. I make an effort to keep my prices in the moderate range because my customers tend to be girls like myself who aren’t going to be buying a really expensive couture vintage gown. I make sure to keep my overhead low and if I see something I like at a thrift/garage sale but feel I won’t make a profit on it, I simply don’t buy it thereby keeping my costs down. Basically, I don’t think the customer is the problem or that they don’t appreciate handmade or unique things. I think consumers are generally intelligent and they have to pick and choose what to spend on, if a handmade headband is not it, so be it.
What many people don’t realize is that creative does not mean business savvy. You can have the most lovely handmade pottery in the world but if it’s not something people want and will pay for, it’s not going to sell. There’s a fine line between valuing your work and not being smart and honest about your business, in my opinion. It doesn’t matter how much you value your own work when it comes to the bottom line. People have to love your product and be willing to shell out for it. The most successful sellers on Etsy, that I’ve seen, have a variety of price points in their shops and have consciously made an effort to do so. They make a lower priced version of one of their more expensive items with different materials for example to make sales and not exclude or alienate buyers. This is not pandering to the masses. It’s being smart about remaining competitive and relevant in the marketplace. It’s also a means to be able to afford to make their higher end items. There will always be a market for both and that’s fine.
I know about 3-4 ladies around my age who’ve started Etsy shops and closed them because of lack of sales. With the exception of one who is a vintage seller like myself, the others were simply charging too much for items that people are not willing to pay for. In an ideal world, every cool girl is willing to shell out $150 for a snood but most aren’t going to. And the ones who are are probably not going to do it on Etsy with a not very established seller when there are a million other shops that sell the same stuff, do it better or charge less. That sounds harsh but it’s true. Vintage is a bit different because most things are unique by nature, I guess.
In regards to hobbyists being the cause of the cheapening of etsy, I think that is unfair. I am one of those ‘hobbyist’ sellers but I still want to make money at my craft, and set my prices accordingly. I have done fairly well and giving myself a few extra dollars a month to take care of some bills, and I am by no means cheapening etsy.
I think you have full time and part time sellers who dont know what the market will bear, and dont think about their pricing with total operational costs in mind.
Additionally, you have sites like Heartsy that condition the buyer to get their handmade only when it is on sale (and usually at a loss to the seller who ‘is just trying to get their name out there by doing it).
And you have the ebay and walmart conditioning as well.
It is a number of factors, not the part-time/hobbyist seller.
Hi there,
Wow! What a discussion you’ve prompted! 🙂
What I don’t see in the responses are many perspectives from customers.
The way to combat price is by offering quality.
I cannot stress this enough. Quality quality quality.
This is what is missing from today’s mass produced marketplace, and is a niche to be filled by skilled and talented craftspersons. Make products to last (as opposed to designed for the dump), make products from eco-friendly sustainable materials (as opposed to cheap), and share your story.
I support businesses that work towards a triple bottom line: profit, environmental responsibility, and social responsibility. Corporate culture cannot address these three priorities as well as small business and individual artists, so make that a feature.
I am willing to pay up to 5x more for products made under this premise, and I do (often). The amazing things I buy from craftpersons on etsy are prized pieces in my wardrobe and home, I treat them with respect and I cherish them. I feel good about support a real person, about the materials used, and because its made to last I keep it 10x longer than the mass produced crap … Hold on… It costs 5x more but last 10x longer? I just made my investment back! These are investment pieces: while they cost more upfront it ends up saving me money in the long term.
Make your stuff well and responsibly and be sure to communicate where the value comes from. People like me will buy it.
Hey! I realize this is sort of off-topic however I
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Please let me know if you have any kind of recommendations or tips for brand
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I mean Etsy and the culture of cheap is kinda plain.
You could peek at Yahoo’s front page and watch how they create article titles to grab
viewers to click. You might add a video or a related pic
or two to grab people excited about everything’ve written.
Just my opinion, it could make your website a
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